Useful chick info for residents of guyville.

written by Julie R. Neidlinger      92 comments      link this post     


::My friend Naomi and I had a discussion about a month ago, regarding things guys should (or might want to) know about women. Or at least, some guys, and women like us. Obviously, we can't speak for everyone, so we instead speak for just our own and our friend's experiences. Naomi is here with me tonight, so here you go. The final product. Our masterful thesis. Feel free to add or subtract, in the comments section.::

Note: The women we are talking about below are not women who are gold diggers, habitual flirts, annoyances, or operating with some freakish plan to control and ruin men's lives. They are just good people wanting things to work. SO DON'T LEAVE COMMENTS ABOUT SUCH WOMEN. Thank you.

Note #2: Not nearly enough men will read this. How unfortunate.

Note #3: Yes, these are generalizations and yes, there are exceptions. THIS IS STILL TRUE AND USEFUL.

  1. Leave the safety net. You'll never make a great catch* if you're already in the net. What's the safety net? Maybe a group of friends you always hang around with, or siblings, or habits, or a job -- anything that is safe and less frightening than the thought of approaching a woman you're interested in. Women will appreciate your bravery and courage. (See number five below)

  2. People are not stationary objects. If you put other things before people with the idea of getting back to them when you have time, chances are, they won't be there. Same for women. Don't wait until you have the time, the money, the right job, the right moment -- she might not be there when you get back. Plus, she doesn't care about the time, the money, the right job -- if she's a quality woman. People, which includes women, don't stand still and wait around for things or other people to happen to them. Any woman that does wait around and allow other people or situations to dictate the direction of her life is not a person you'll enjoy being with past one hour.

  3. Be direct, be clear. You don't go to the doctor and talk around the problem if you want a correct diagnosis. Make your intentions known to the woman. Don't just be a "nice guy" and assume she can understand what your intentions toward her are. Let her know, without being creepy.1 Say what you are trying to say, ask what you want to ask, and don't let the elephant in the room get any bigger. Because it stinks. A lot. Definitions of the relationship are not bad.

  4. Don't allow silence to speak for you. Silence is a language with no translation, at least when it comes to guy/girl relationships. What does your silence mean to a woman? That you're not interested? That you are bored with her? That you were never really interested in the first place? That she's bothering you? That she's not worth your time or effort? This is what women are thinking when you are silent and passive, no matter what the circumstances of your silence.

  5. Initiate. This is attractive to 99.92 percent of all women no matter how much they doth protest. Taking the lead IS ATTRACTIVE TO WOMEN. Women want the guy to pursue, to start, to initiate, to go first. Without stalking, of course. If you are interested in a woman, send the first email, make the first phone call. Don't always make her go first and then play it safe by being a responder instead of an initiator. You'll only end up with a woman who is controlling, over-powering and manipulative. YOU WILL REGRET THIS. You'll spend your life defensively responding and following, not leading. If you are passive, you will attract a dominant woman. If you are interested in a future in the doormat industry, go ahead. Otherwise, lead.

  6. Persistence pays. Even if you are turned down (unless you're stalking and a freak3) women appreciate a guy who isn't a quitter. A guy with class and taste will be persistent in a classy and tasteful way. It could be that the first rejection was because you caught her off-guard and she wasn't expecting you to show interest. She may need time to think, and if you were to ask her again, she would be ready. Or maybe you caught her at a bad time or in a situation (e.g. she was with friends, at a funeral, being rushed into an emergency room) and her mind wasn't really on a date.

  7. Take a risk. Women know it's difficult. That's why we appreciate it.

  8. Save your sob stories. Don't pour your heart out to every woman you meet. You'll exhaust the best of you on women who may not be worth the investment.

  9. Ego-strokers are not quality women. If there is a woman who is initiating or making the first move for you, chances are she's doing it to get attention or for her own selfish motives. It is doubtful that you are, indeed, the hottest guy with the best car and the greatest sense of humor, so any woman that tells you that carries a warning. She's looking for attention. Those lovely ego-strokes quickly turn into shrill poundings until she finds another guy after being bored with you. Quite often quality women roll their eyes as they watch men fall all over ego-strokers, knowing what's going on. Either that, or they figure they have to lower themselves to flattery about glass-pack mufflers and a pretend interest in the Vikings.

  10. *Women aren't fish. Women can't be caught. The pursuit of women never ends. If you think you've caught yourself a woman and can slack off and stop pursuing her as you once did, surprise: nope. Women want to be pursued, always, even if the relationship seems solidified and without question. To women, men pursue what is valued and desirable, and if you stop pursuing us, we must no longer have value or be desirable.
--------------------

1 Nice guys can be potential friends, and they can be potential romances. How are women, except Miss Cleo, to know what your niceness is all about if you don't tell her? Creepy, for Naomi and I, would be sitting down and grandly stating in some bizarro Victorian fashion, that your intentions are "to go a courtin'" or something. Just be conversational and casual and explain what you appreciate about her character and tell her if you just want to be a friend or if you'd be open to more. You have to make it clear to her what you want and where you're headed because she shouldn't invest her heart and emotions into something she thinks is more when you only wanted someone to go bowling with on Tuesday with Frank and Joe.

2 A bogus fact, but our margin of error is something like .01 percent. Which is, of course, another bogus fact. But also true.

3 Let's talk about freakish, creepy, stalking techniques. Anytime you find yourself a) waiting by her car, b) calling persistently and leaving over 20 unanswered messages a day, c) eyeing a baseball bat or 35mm camera with a telephoto lens, d) hating any guy she talks to, e) driving past her residence repeatedly, or f) if her "no" is insistent and you've heard it about 10 times, you are a freak. These are just a few. If you should find yourself with a restraining order, you've gone way past classy and tasteful. Look, it varies from woman to woman. Creepy, freaky, needy women like the stalker tactics. Enjoy your catch, in that case. You'll be filling a Prozac prescription in about three years.

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Copyright (c) Julie R. Neidlinger  8/11/2007 09:38:00 PM   (92) comments   Links to this post    

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92 Comments:

Hey, I'm a guy and I read the list.
All I can say is I'm glad I'm married. There are a different set of rules then.

By Anonymous Jim, at 12/8/07 14:33  

Jim, the commenter who never disappoints.

;-)

By Blogger Julie, at 12/8/07 14:37  

Here is an interesting article from Arts and Letters Daily some readers may find interesting in connection with your post.

"A faint heart never won a fair lady, though a soft heart may win a gentleman. And Geoffrey Miller has been busy proving it... "

http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9581656

By Anonymous Will, at 12/8/07 15:55  

Yeah, it all makes sense. I'm familiar with some of this list. But easier said than done. I could've used a guide book years ago. Some kind of instruction manual. It would've saved me (and others) a lot of grief.

I didn't know the protocol. The signs, the gestures. She's playing with her earring. Does that mean she's nervous? Or that I'm supposed to ask her about her earrings? Aw crap. She asked me. Do I like them? I don't know anything about earrings. So long as they're not big loops that I can fit my head through, sure, I like them fine. They're fine earrings.

Can I take women at their word? Or is there some hidden agenda? I've seen many agendas.

By Anonymous deniro, at 12/8/07 19:03  

You'll be happy to know that when I play with my earring...something is definitely wrong.

I don't have pierced ears.

Therefore, I shouldn't be playing with an earring.

The whole signs thing -- well, I don't get them either. That's why Nome and I (feel free to jump in, Nome, ANYTIME) wanted to point out that this was from our limited perspective. I think it safe to say we're both pretty transparent and without devious agendas filled with hidden signals like some baseball coach.

I've seen those books that say "when a woman does this, she means that" and I don't get it. I try to say what I'm trying to say. So...I can't speak for those things.

By Blogger Julie, at 12/8/07 21:36  

Interesting article, Will. This paragraph jumped out at me:

"They divided a bunch of volunteers into two groups. Those in one were put into what the researchers hoped would be a “romantic mindset” by being shown pictures of attractive members of the opposite sex. They were each asked to write a description of a perfect date with one of these people. The unlucky members of the other group were shown pictures of buildings and told to write about the weather."

Confession: I would want to be in the group with the photos of the buildings, writing about the weather. I wonder what that says about me? Do I desire unluck?

By Blogger Julie, at 12/8/07 22:34  

Awright....

Somebody, please write "Useful guy info for residents of Chickville."

By Blogger David Cho, at 12/8/07 23:05  

Well, David, you have a blog.

Go to it.

In fact, I will link to any and all blog posts on just such a topic. The gauntlet is thrown.

Because I'm generous that way. And also, it doesn't cost me anything.

By Blogger Julie, at 12/8/07 23:28  

I'll jump in briefly, mainly to agree with you, Julie, that the earring/signs thing is . . . well . . . basically useless. That's another reason why being direct and clear about intentions is helpful--not just for the woman, but for the man who is desperately trying to guess what all of her "signs" mean. Don't spend too much time guessing. At some point you just talk to her about it and find out. And I don't doubt at all that it is easier said than done (see number 7).

Deniro--I would love to tell you that yes, you can take women at their word and that there is no hidden agenda. But like Julie and I said, it depends on the woman and we can only speak for ourselves. Sorry.

Looking forward to David's "Useful guy info for residents of Chickville" post!

--Naomi

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 13/8/07 00:16  

No, far be it for me to lecture to women.

In fact, I did just post a gender related topic, but it is not related to dating.

DON'T POST A LINK.

It's an unprocessed thought which I may regret posting.

By Blogger David Cho, at 13/8/07 00:51  

Really long comment here, page down if you have no interest.

I wrote this to encourage someone who didn't know how to meet women easily.

Somehow in all this there is a horse to water making them drink paradox in all this advice.

It may be the Guy's guide. Or not. It has been hammered out on the anvil of experience. I'll not tell why or how.

Of Julie and Naomi's list number 5 is the most interesting and actually revealing to me. I know of several marriages where the power struggle has kept those marriages from being all they could have been.

Thanks for that.

My Submission:

Fifteen Undeniable Truths About Men and Women

1. Women want to develop a relationship with a man who’s decent. That’s before and after marriage.

2. Women are responders to a man’s attentions. If a man initiates a woman will respond, they are hard wired that way and can’t do anything else.

3. To a man what a woman looks like matters, to a woman what a man looks like is far less important. What a man looks like matters is much less important to her than he believes. The media and movies have distorted this truth. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

4. Treating a woman with respect, importance and value reinforces her self-image, which is fragile, and Dependant upon approval from others, particularly from men that matter to her.

5. Listening is a wonderful gift all women love. They crave the listening ear without judgment or advice.

6. The LOOK of love is wrapped in rapt attention; joy in the eyes, and a smile. A smile good teeth or bad is very attractive. A smile breaks down walls. What your smile looks like is less important than that you actually smile.

7. Women need lifting up, they respond to humor and a genuine positive attitude toward life. Irony and cynicism are funny but not uplifting. They like to cry at movies but want laugh with you in real life.

8. The TOUCH – after enough time of communication has passed a touch on the shoulders or hand has great power. Done too soon it is cheap and manipulative. Done right it is explosive. Use with care. Don’t be grabby.

9. Women try to be standoffish and aloof because they have been hurt and manipulated. They desperately want to trust and even love someone. They just don’t want to be hurt again. The more attractive a woman is the more this is true.

10. Women who are at the bottom in their life (and some at the top) are looking for a man to rescue them. Men won’t find many women willing to rescue them. Some women who want to be rescued respond to any kind of a rescuer. This works sometimes and the relationship is great. Some rescued women are difficult to have a good relationship with. They needed rescue because of THEMSELVES. Marc Anthony said of Julius Cesar, “scorning the base degrees by which he did ascend”. Some rescued women can be Julius Caesars in that way.

11. Men are capable of living a full life without a woman but they are much worse off. It is harder for a woman to feel fulfilled particularly in later years without a man. This seems to never stop. Women seem to need a man to feel complete. Men don’t feel it the same way but are made complete with the love of a good woman.

12. SEXY?? To a woman, sexy is positive, intelligent, self sufficient, strong, secure, able to converse, interested in them, self confident, in good health, fun and just a little unorthodox. Money and things are far less important to a woman than men believe. If money is an issue there is an out of balance situation in the relationship.

13. For a woman, getting to know a man is the beginning of love. “To know, know, know him is to love, love, love him”, as the song says is true. They want to be understood and not be misunderstood. Communication is safety for her. “If you know all about me and still care about me, it makes me feel safe”

14. The more attractive a woman is (beauty) the more unapproachable they appear. This is not true (unless they are shallow, stupid and empty). In fact, as pretty women they have been used, manipulated, and abused by men. This causes them to maintain a distance they don’t really want. Some of the loneliest women are very beautiful. Women who became beautiful later in years (many very attractive women bloom later in life) are less complex. Never let external beauty be your guide. It is deceiving and fleeting. This deception is foisted on both men and women.

15. A rich spiritual life in a man is very sexy to a woman.

Sorry for going long but I wrote that for someone I care very much about.

Hope it helps.

By Blogger Gene Redlin, at 13/8/07 07:56  

Hi Julie. Glad you're back. And I'm glad you had a chance to visit my native Michigan. Beautiful, isn't it?

I'm 16 years very happily married, so none of this applies to me anymore, but I did have a bit of a tough dating life in the years before. It seems to me that your points are addressed to a hypothetical male that you (and/or Naomi) might be interested in. So of course, you want him to state his intentions, you want him to initiate, you want him to be persistent. Because, in your mind, you already have a potential interest.

Now think of these things regarding a guy that you have no interest in. Or maybe he's in the "friend" category, and you want nothing more than to keep him in the "friend" category. Let's be honest: you really don't want him to initiate anything more. It's uncomfortable, it's awkward, you have to turn him down and (because you are a decent person) you really don't want to hurt his feelings in the process. You really don't want him to be persistent. If he's a friend, you're likely to lose the friendship in the process. Oh dear.

I was that second guy far too often. Men get passive, and silent, and lack persistence largely from being shot down too much. We find that the direct approach you think you want (I think you're being totally sincere--and who knows? Maybe you and Naomi really do want that) is a romance killer. People--men and women--like the dance. Women, just like men, don't value what they get too easily. "If he's that interested in me, from out of nowhere, what's wrong with him?" And I think most of us have a little bit of Groucho Marx in us: "I wouldn't join a club that would have me for a member." "I wouldn't date a guy/girl who...." well, you get the idea.

For what it's worth, your last suggestion is a gem, and it's a big part of what's wrong with 90% of marriages. The great love killer is being taken for granted. I'm crazy about my wife, and the more I make a point to let her know that, the more she gives back to me. The Beatles were right, even if they were about to break up and sue each other: "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

By Blogger Keith Schooley, at 13/8/07 08:03  

I have found tequila to be a useful tool in the dating arena!

By Anonymous robbie, at 13/8/07 08:16  

David, you know that you CANNOT possibly tell me you posted something and then tell me to not post a link.

You just know I'm not going to listen.

You just know it.

In fact, if I were to "obey" like that, why, I'd probably be signing up for that SBC course you blogged about right now.

By Blogger Julie, at 13/8/07 09:36  

Keith, the guy/girl friendship vs. more thing is notoriously difficult. However, that very situation is partly why Naomi and I started talking about this back when we started writing down this list.

It isn't fair for either the guy or girl to not know. That is, one shouldn't invest more than friendship feelings and dedication if the other sees only a friendship. If no one talks about it, it only postpones a bad ending. Granted, talking about it may end the friendship.

Like I said (and have acknowledged before), guy/girl friendships are notoriously messy. They very rarely carry on for a great length of time at the level of closeness as a same-sex friendship. It happens, but not as much.

Do you want to know a secret? I don't like the dance, if it means everyone is "speaking" in some kind of coded message and dancing around playing some kind of hint-filled give-and-take game to see where things go.

That doesn't make sense to me.

I think in terms of: what is the hoped for end? Where is this ship headed as far as we know? Is a guy /girl just hiding behind "friends only" because he/she wants to bide his time and see if it would be more?

That's certainly not fair to the other party who then invests the appropriate amount of energy and feelings into such a relationship.

Perhaps I'm not romantic, though I don't think that's a quite correct or fair assessment.

I think in terms of "economy of emotion." That is, I hate to constantly throw intense feelings and attachments after something that wasn't even asking for them or decided to be flippant or platonic about it all. It's an extremely painful waste, and a destructive one for me, since the next time around I'm less likely to trust, and less prone to dish out that same stuff. Each time it happens... well, the person at the end of the line gets very little, you could say. So I don't want to dance around. I want to be up-front.

Again: I am only speaking for myself, here.

I made a list in one of my journals about this, which was much shorter and less wordy. I think. I should go find it and post it here...

By Blogger Julie, at 13/8/07 10:48  

Okay, I have just one small contribution.

When you are turning down the guy's date or breaking up with him, DON'T SPIRITUALIZE IT.

It's bad enough to use the old tired line, "it's not you, but it's me." But don't bring in God with the "I really need to work on my relationship with the Lord" line.

Please hold your applause.

By Blogger David Cho, at 13/8/07 13:12  

In fact, if I were to "obey" like that, why, I'd probably be signing up for that SBC course you blogged about right now.

I was afraid you were going to link it, which is why I edited out my long rant about that program, which probably is a good thing.

By Blogger David Cho, at 13/8/07 13:15  

"...I was afraid..."

Yes, David. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

(Although I'm dying to have read your rant and wish I'd gotten to your site before you removed it so that I could screen capture the page. Darn you. I don't suppose you could provide the gist of the aforementioned rant...)

By Blogger Julie, at 13/8/07 13:58  

Regarding the "it's not you, it's me" line which you find tired...well yes, it is tired. I have no idea why some might use it.

I often find myself saying it in other words (and not just guy/girl stuff) because I am not ever going to allow myself the luxury of thinking "the whole problem was the other person and not me, so it's their fault." I'm fully aware I contribute to a great many Titanics in life, and I can only change myself, anyway, so I say: it's not you, it's me.

Translation: I can't change you and I don't know that I should even want to, so the only person who can make a change here is me. I am the only problem I can work on and so the problem in my eyes is me. Not you.

The "I really need to work on my realtionship with the Lord" might sound a little like an earlier post where I talked about needing to...work on my relationship with the Lord.

However, in my own defense, I don't think it's the same. I can always use work on my relationship with the Lord, and I certainly wouldn't use that as an excuse to push someone away.

By Blogger Julie, at 13/8/07 14:12  

MAN! There's a lot to know out there in "single-land." So many rules. I'll wait for the movie.

By Anonymous nodakjack, at 13/8/07 14:39  

Do you really want to know? Well, you asked.

I had to get it off my chest, so I put my reaction in the comments of this post.

Knowing a bit about your politics, I think you may get offended by it.

Even though the blogger's post isn't about the SWBTS program, my reaction originated from the same reservoir of resentment toward the whole worldview behind the SWBTS mindset. I try to look at the big picture.

So you have been warned. Don't go there unless you are ready to get offended.

By Blogger David Cho, at 13/8/07 17:23  

Glad to have you back, Jack!

And David, I totally want to be offended. I'm going to check out the link now. I can hardly wait.

By Blogger Julie, at 13/8/07 17:31  

(45 seconds later)

I am totally offended.

By Blogger Julie, at 13/8/07 17:33  

I read through the posts and the comments again and I couldn't help thinking that this was a lot to live up to. If you ever find anyone with those characteristics, you better hold on to them.

By Anonymous deniro, at 13/8/07 18:50  

David's comment made me laugh.

I've never heard that one.

It's like saying, "It's not you. It's God. God doesn't want us to be together."

Hey God, thanks a lot.

By Anonymous deniro, at 13/8/07 18:52  

I can assure you that neither of us intended this to be disheartening. I am only mildly jesting about a guy writing a different version of such a list.

I don't see it as a list of impossible characteristics. I'm not listing things like "must be hot, have X-percent body fat, $X salary, at least 6' tall, thick head of hair, no emotional baggage, perfect Christian, genius, fabulous sense of humor, great cook, outgoing, gorgeous eyes, always happy, blah blah blah."

That kind of guy is impossible, creepy, and not interesting. I could care less about most of that.

This was a list, then, attempting to "decipher signals" if you're a person to see it that way; or better yet, a list to aid in communication.

I think the list can be summed up as follows: Be up front, be honest, find some measure of confidence in yourself, and say something.

Anyone: What would you like to say to those of us in chickville, in a similar line of thinking?

This was not meant to be disheartening or accusatory or negative towards guys.

By Blogger Julie, at 13/8/07 19:05  

When I wrote, "People--men and women--like the dance," I didn't really mean that everyone consciously enjoys it. I merely meant that that's what people tend to respond to. What people consciously want and what they actually respond to are often two very different things.

I also didn't mean a "hint-filled give-and-take game," at least not a conscious one. What I did mean is a bit difficult to convey; a different metaphor than "dance" suggests itself. Imagine a picture of a face composed of dots which emerges from a blank page one dot at a time, randomly. At first it makes no sense; then a picture starts to suggest itself. Meeting and getting to know a person is a bit like that. You don't know much about them; you learn details as you go along.

As the picture begins to develop, you "connect the dots" in your own mind. If there's an attraction (even that of friendship), you tend to imagine the missing details in the best possible light. As the picture emerges, you may find what you imagined to be confirmed or to be falsified.

Sometimes, early on in a relationship, a person thinks he knows more than he really does about the other person. (A mistake made more often by men than by women, I think.) He may "fall in love" almost immediately, not realizing that his affections are directed toward a largely imaginary being of his own creation. Or he may reject the other person prematurely.

Wiser people recognize how little they know about another person. They may be waiting to find out what could develop, in either the directions of friendship or romance. To suggest prematurely romantic possibilities might scare the other person off. Or the other person might be otherwise committed at present, so friendship is the only possibility. Or a person may wish to see how the friendship develops without all the dating nonsense getting in the way. The point is, there are lots of reasons why people don't immediately state their intentions: they are either afraid of killing off what they were trying to cultivate, or they don't know for sure exactly what it is they want to cultivate, until they know the other person better.

At any rate, I can identify with what you wrote regarding the pain and destructiveness of throwing your emotions into something that ends up being rejected, or worse, ignored, pretended that it never existed. It will sound like a platitude, but I'm incredibly grateful for the heartbreaks I've suffered in the past. I had no idea, then, what the fully-adult me would need. God knew much better than I.

By Blogger Keith Schooley, at 13/8/07 19:39  

Excellent stuff, Keith. Really good.

By Blogger Julie, at 13/8/07 19:42  

It took you that long to get offended? and ..

This was not meant to be disheartening or accusatory or negative towards guys.

what fun is there without accusatory and negative rants in a gender war?

By Blogger David Cho, at 13/8/07 22:50  

Oh, let's shoot for 50 comments.

By Blogger David Cho, at 13/8/07 22:51  

Heck yes.

I've never had a 50-comment post.

I would covet 50 comments.

By Blogger Julie, at 13/8/07 23:03  

And I'm not trying to reach 50 on my own comment ability DESPITE HOW IT TRULY APPEARS THAT WAY, but Will took up the challenge and so I am throwing him a link.

32!

By Blogger Julie, at 13/8/07 23:06  

I'm commenting again. But not because of the 50-comments goal. Although I agree, that would be neat.

Just wanted to thank Keith for that last comment. Very well said. You nailed it. I think it shows strength and wisdom for a guy to use discretion about when and to whom he makes his interest known. It definitely should not be done immediately or flippantly. And hopefully it is prefaced with careful thought and prayer.

And Julie is right. The list wasn't meant to accuse or dishearten in any way. Just wanted to share some helpful (?) insight from the female perspective.

Naomi

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 13/8/07 23:38  

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.*"
(Exodus 20:17 ESV)

And though the earliest manuscripts do not contain these words, later texts add the following:

Neither shall you covet comments on your blogs, especially when such coveting has as its desire the attainment of a set number of comments (something like a big round number, say 50, for instance).

I bet you didn;t know that was in the Word, did you?

By Anonymous Will, at 13/8/07 23:40  

Keith,

That was actually very well said.

A young pastor in my church who has been married just a couple of months spoke of his relationship with his new wife.

He wanted to know everything about her and asked every possible imaginable question and sought answers, but then he came to realize that one can know a lot about that person without knowing him/her.

He related the illustration to our own relationship with Christ. Do we really know him? My own slice-of-laodicea background called for doctrinal purity which led me to believe that every sin and problem in my life could be traced to bad doctrine which could only be cured by a major dose of indoctrination.

(to be continued in the quest for 50 comments and more)

By Blogger David Cho, at 14/8/07 02:35  

(Because of Julie's moderation policy, I can't see my previous comment which I can use for further elaboration, and therefore I cannot be held accountable for repetitiveness or lack of coherence).

I think "connecting the dots" and creating our own false imageries can apply not just to romances and human relationships, but how we relate to God as well.

(I seriously don't know where I am going with this because I can't see my previous comment. This could be a manifestation of the early stage of Alzheimer.).

By Blogger David Cho, at 14/8/07 02:54  

Thanks for the kind comments, David. Yes, God is even more difficult to understand than women are. As amazing as that sounds.

Julie, forget about the 50 comments. You may have already hit an all-time internet record in having 36 comments that actually deal in some way with the topic of your original post. Usually anything beyond 12 is an off-topic argument.

At any rate, you asked for it.

By Blogger Keith Schooley, at 14/8/07 13:33  

That is a great list, Keith. I left a comment there. Good stuff.

(Aside: so...if we waste comments talking about wanting more comments and how the comments haven't derailed from the topic at hand...at that point haven't the comments derailed from the topic at hand and become their own topic?)

By Blogger Julie, at 14/8/07 14:13  

I don’t know why, but I’m going to list some of the inappropriate things I’ve said to women. Learn from me. It’s all I have to offer. Also, since so much time has gone by since I said these things, they are less painful, maybe even funny. Still cringeworthy.

1) It’s not you, it’s me.
2) You’re so thin, you need to eat (to my sister on her wedding day).
3) I like those bracelets. Reminds me of my black, grade-school teacher in the 1970s who had an afro.
4) Is your hair naturally blond?
5) Do you know what the word gold-digger means?
6) Maybe you need a makeover.
7) Have you lost weight?
8) Have you ever thought of getting that wart removed?
9) Where did you grow up, on a pirate ship?
10) Do you wear dark tights so that you don’t have to shave your legs?

By Anonymous deniro, at 14/8/07 16:20  

I vow never to covet my neighbor's donkey.

What about his Lexus? That's like a really souped up donkey.

By Anonymous deniro, at 14/8/07 16:24  

I tried to post this on another entry, but it didn't seem to make it. So I will post it here, and thus add to the climbing comment total once more.

In your post "What I have Learned" you state that one of the things you have learned is to "Guard my heart in all things. This could be in the realm of emotional, intellectual, personal, or habits connected to my heart. Don't fling the door wide open for anyone that comes along." -

My question is "How does this fit in with your advice to guys (i.e., be assertive, initiate, leave the safety net)? Just wondering.

By Anonymous Will, at 14/8/07 16:31  

Dark tights...shave...pirate ship...

Unbelievable.

(I'll answer Will's question in a new comment, as we progress towards 50.)

By Blogger Julie, at 14/8/07 17:56  

It fits into #3: it's stupid to throw yourself wide open inside only to find out it was only a casual friendship. Guarding your heart means not pouring it all out only to find just a little was required.

Painful, and a waste. And leaves a person feeling stupid.

By Blogger Julie, at 14/8/07 17:59  

PEOPLE!

Let's build up to 50 comments NATURALLY, not artificially.

Let the 50th comment just come to us just by talking to each other naturally without thinking about the count.

Thank you for your cooperation.

By Blogger David Cho, at 14/8/07 23:42  

Let me give you an analogy.

Have you ever driven your car past 100,000 miles? It is a significant milestone to be celebrated, but if your eyes constantly stay on the meter, as opposed to the task at hand, which is driving, you will end up killing yourself and/others on the road.

Just keep on driving, and soon or later, your 100,000 will come soon or later.

By Blogger David Cho, at 14/8/07 23:46  

Ahem. Listen here, David. I'm in charge of this blog. I'll do the bossing around.

(45)

(45!!!)

By Blogger Julie, at 14/8/07 23:47  

So...what you're saying, then, is that was comment 46, and this is comment 47?

(I'm sorry. I don't know why I'm such a jerk.)

Let me put something relating to the topic to at least salvage this comment.

Hmmm.

Regarding Gene's list, which has garnered little comment, I would say I disagree with #11. Good intentions, possibly, but Gene can't possibly know if a woman feels fulfilled or not. I should think the proliferation of single women on the mission field, for example, suggests that they, too, can live full lives without a man. I don't think one gender has the corner on being fulfilled without the other; it is very much on a person-by-person basis.

Women tend to live longer then men. Single, or no. I think I've read that men who get married tend to live longer than single men. That says something. Perhaps that ties into what Gene is saying because men kick the bucket faster than women and don't get to the upper regions of age and realize that almost all of their friends and the people they know are gone.

Or maybe it's just late and I'm itching for an argument.

But I disagree with #11.

By Blogger Julie, at 15/8/07 00:12  

(Gentle reminder: The 50 thing was MY IDEA!!!!!)

Let's talk about married men living longer than single men.

Since the vast majority of men get married, how do you compare their longevity with the population of confirmed bachelors which is very small in comparison? Can they truly make valid statistical comparisons to arrive at that conclusion?

Do they count men who die before their 30th birthday as "single" men? Many young men die of violence without having been married. That will really skew the data in favor of married men.

Are you sure the study was not funded by the National Association of Wedding Coordinators?

By Blogger David Cho, at 15/8/07 00:48  

"Not to fifty!"
--Count Rugen, the Six-Fingered Man, The Princess Bride

By Blogger Keith Schooley, at 15/8/07 07:17  

I agree that the NAWC is a nefarious organization.

By Blogger Julie, at 15/8/07 07:18  

Aw, man, a Princess Bride reference! On a post about men/women.

Men and women.

Talk about your land wars in Asia...

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 15/8/07 07:22  

OK, OK. There'll be no Princess Bride "inconceivable" or "six-fingered man" jokes.

We've met our comment quota.

Obviously, this topic is done.

--the comment Nazi

By Blogger Julie, at 15/8/07 07:39  

Keith, you have your own comment section going on your version of this post.

Gonna get 50 there, too?

By Anonymous Anonymous, at 15/8/07 12:43  

Number Eleven

I'm not going to try to defend it. It's observation and anecdote based on knowing lots of people very well all around the world.

Men are bad at being alone because they develop bad habits. They live less long. They become virtual hermits. They close in closer and closer in their lives. I don't know many men who do well alone. But they don't NEED a woman the same as a woman needs a man. They can live in the light of other men ok but not as well as if they were completed by a woman.

But they do better than many women do alone. Sure there are women on the mission field. There are nuns. They have found a relationship with Jesus that fills a gap.

I know it's controversial but the idea that a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle means fish need to learn to ride. They NEED men.

Unfortunately not all women find love. Not all men find love. I have people I know who seem to be pretty well adjusted and happy. My "Friend" Mary Smich of the tribune is pretty together and single. She doesn't have a house full of cats. She doesn't wear a tinfoil hat. She seems to be OK. BUT, she has a space she would like to fill emotionally that only a relationship with a significant male can fill.

This has nothing to do with sex and children. This has to do with the God Given completion that happens in a marriage. It's the ability to withdraw emotional currency from a person most at interest in giving it out. When a girl is small it's her dad. When she's a teen it's boys in general, when she grows up it's what one man thinks and reassures her with.

I have not met one woman who did not want for that.

My next door neighbor who lost her husband a few years ago. From an offhanded positive comment made to her, she has lived on that comment for quite a while. And I'm not even a significant person in her life. But she needed to know how a Man saw her in a positive light and it helped her in a tough time of aloneness. She is now in a productive loving relationship. She NEEDED a man's word of approbation no woman could have given with the same net effect. That confidence helped her have the assurance to enter back into meeting men again.

That is why I am so convinced that the relationship with a woman and a man is so complex and misunderstood mostly by women. The hope women have to be independent of any need of men is futile. That's good for men if men only understood it. They are a gift to a woman and don't know it. If they did they would ask women out, they would pursue them some. They are givers of a gift. They would also be very careful in how that gift is given. Don't give it unless you mean it.

I don't think most women understand this complex dynamic. They think it diminishes them. Nothing could be further from the truth. It builds them up.

I blame feminism for much of this misunderstanding. I am hopeful we will get balance again in this area.

By Blogger Gene Redlin, at 15/8/07 17:03  

"That is why I am so convinced that the relationship with a woman and a man is so complex and misunderstood mostly by women."

and

"[Women] They NEED men."

The writer of this must have been a man.

Thank you for taking this into this kind of territory.

Actually, no. No thank you.

Perhaps you genuinely meant well, but I think, just as past disagreements with you over everything from killing horses to revitalizing North Dakota, the language, assumptions, and belief that your observations/opinion are absolute are completely repellant.

You seem to be saying that men, though they develop slovenly habits, are OK without women, whereas women are absolutely in need of men and are the ones misunderstanding this.

Perhaps we need to start with the definition of "misunderstanding" and who this applies to.

But, rather than go on, since it was my fault for even disagreeing with #11, I'll say this much: I still disagree with #11.

By Blogger Julie, at 15/8/07 18:21  

And, to beat a dead horse (ha)...balance "in this area" surely won't be coming as long as every guy is walking around thinking he is God's gift to women.

There's your trouble right there.

By Blogger Julie, at 15/8/07 18:26  

"every guy is walking around thinking he is God's gift to women".


Here's the real trouble, in a way he IS.

Ephesians 5:25 (to give himself as Christ gave himself)

If men and women understood this life and love would be easier.

PS Thanks for not being a real mean Comment Nazi and allowing me to "spout off" just a bit more.

By Blogger Gene Redlin, at 15/8/07 18:42  

First off, I ought to be thanking you, Gene, for my irritation with your comments helped me breeze right through my nightly run with nary a gasp or wheeze. I could evidently be in better shape if I could locate an internet forum that regularly angered me.

To disagree a bit more amicably with your "women need men but men don't need women" theory, I would offer up what I call the "Johnny Cash effect." That is, when a woman dies and her husband dies for no obvious reason shortly after.

Now, you might respond and say that that does not happen all of the time, that there are plenty of cases where the woman dies and the husband lives on. You might also point out cases in which the wife dies shortly after the husband. I would agree that you would be correct, and then counter by saying that clearly, it is not an across-the-board gender issue. It is a person-by-person issue.

I have, more than once, recommended that people read the short yet revealing books by Shaunti Feldman (For Women Only and For Men Only). Despite the titles suggesting otherwise, I think it important that everyone read both. These books at least make an attempt at a serious polling (as opposed to my, Naomi's, and Gene's basis of personal opinion and experience) of the sexes to show, by book's end, that men need women and women need men. Albeit, in their own unique ways, yes, but the need is bi-directional. It goes both ways. Men and women who go through life happily on their own are the anomaly, not the norm.

To try to address this as a Bible-thumper, since you've brought scripture into it as you did, I would say that God created Eve for Adam because he saw that it wasn't good for man to be alone. If you would like to interpret "man" as "humankind" it still supports my case: it is not good for any human -- man or woman -- to be alone.

On a superficial take of the passage, however, God saw that Adam, a man, needed Eve, a woman. The need was man's.

I would never be a person to think that God would create half of the human race to not need the other half. The only disproportionate need is hierarchical, that of all humans needing him. Unless, of course, you think men are higher than women.

If you would continue to disagree with the simple idea that men and women need each other or counter with a belief that men are higher than women and therefore up a step hierarchical: a) send all your female friends to a women-only sewing and cooking class at seminary b) stand still long enough for some woman to kick your ass or c) read the book Captivating by Stasi and John Eldridge and get a different take on women that you may or may not agree with but will at least get you to stop being such a pig-headed man.

Not to put too fine a point on it.

You will note that I did not even attempt to address the claim that the fault of misunderstanding lies with women. I should think that argument has taken care of itself.

By Blogger Julie, at 15/8/07 20:32  

Anonymous (Naomi?)--

Nah, I've a long way to go in blogging before I start thinking about the Magic 50. But I did post a followup here. I hope Julie will allow me a bit of shameless self-promotion.

By Blogger Keith Schooley, at 16/8/07 00:56  

Not only will I allow it, but I encourage it.

By Blogger Julie, at 16/8/07 08:58  

I don't get women. They are impossible to figure out. It's maddening.

By Anonymous jeff, at 5/9/07 16:15  

Why would you want to "figure" out women, or any person, for that matter?

People aren't math problems. They aren't logical. If you figure out a math problem you...move onto the next one. Why would it be any different if you "figured out" a person? Who would want to be the kind of person that could be "figured out"?

How awful.

I recommend taking a gander at the lyrics to a song by Meredith Brooks with the shameful title of "Bitch." There is not a single female friend of mine that I've been with when that song has come on who hasn't turned to me and said "This song is so true."

I don't see it as "bitch" behavior. It makes sense to me. The same can be said for what guys might think are "games" that women play: they don't fall into that category for women. They make sense.

Go figure.

By Blogger Julie R. Neidlinger, at 5/9/07 18:41  

Note: These are the correct lyrics. The chorus should read "hell" instead of "health" as the link above would lead you to believe.

"Health" makes no sense.

By Blogger Julie R. Neidlinger, at 5/9/07 18:43  

Ok, I gotta admit I've been thinking about this post a lot.

I had a discussion recently with my ex girlfriend. We get along good now. Anyways, we'd had a huge fight and that's when we broke up. She told me to go away. When we were talking just a few days ago (she has another boyfriend now by the way) she told me she didn't mean it at the time, and that if I'd called her or something she and I would probably be dating still.

It kind of irritates me. I really liked her, she was an awesome person. Kind of like her still. Anyways, I think this kind of has something to do with this stuff in this post about making the first move or the initiative or whatecver. Why do women tell guys to leave if they don't want tthem to? It seems like a trap or a game or whatever. How is a guy suposed to know if she means it or not?

We used to have a lot of fights and stuff but this was the big one where she told me to f- off.

Too late now with her of course but it would be good to know for the future.

Like I sad, maddening.

By Anonymous jeff, at 6/9/07 19:29  

...and sorry about all the typos. Fat fingers.

I really like your blog by the way.

By Anonymous jeff, at 6/9/07 19:32  

Hi Jeff.

First off, I'm glad you like the blog, and I'm sure your fingers aren't fat.

Second, and mainly, I am seriously not qualified to answer your questions as if I were "Dear Abby." However, if you will allow that I can only speak for myself (even if I do use "we" or "they") or what I've learned from my girlfriends, I'll do the best I can.

Fair enough?

OK. Now be patient. I'll get to it, in a round-about way.

My understanding, from talking to guys and stuff I've read, leads me to believe that respect is extremely extremely important for a guy. That is, for a guy to not feel as if he is respected and trusted is a really hard thing. (Someone let me know if I'm wrong on this.)

When I say that it is EXTREMELY important for a woman to feel as if she has worth, it is along those same lines. Sure, guys want to feel like they have worth and women want to feel respected, but there is a difference in definition and amount of need for the two sexes in these two areas.

To the degree that a man wants the respect of his peers in his career or as a provider or whatever it may be, a woman needs to feel worth. Feeling that she is worth a lot to someone is part of feeling like she is loved. To the degree that a man would not want to be disrespected by his wife in public is the same as why a woman feels hurt by being ignored or shuffled into second or third place.

Women need to know they have worth. As long as they know that the person in their life values them and shows them that they have worth, they can take disrespect, rejection, bad circumstances in life -- they can take a lot because it doesn't matter. They know that they have worth. The know someone has their back, if you want to think of it like that.

The world is brutal to people, both men and women. It is especially brutal to women in that it tells us that our worth mainly comes from perfection in appearance, as well as emotional stability, and home. These are impossible things to attain, and women waste a lot of themselves trying to find their worth in places that actually make them feel worthLESS.

If a woman feels like she is worth someone's time, energy, patience -- all of this other stuff doesn't matter at all. I know that if I feel worthless, it's hard to face anything in life. If I know someone likes me and is doing things that show I have some value, I can face just about anything.

So. How do women determine if we are worth something to someone?

I was told that the whole concept of women wanting the guy to come after them is a game. I didn't really argue because, at the time, I wanted to avoid conflict with a person I liked. However, I did not then, and do not now, think that it is a game. For a woman, it is a logical way to determine a measure of worth since it seems logical that a man will go after and get what he wants.

"Am I worth the trouble to go after?"

"Am I worth the possibility of embarrassing rejection?"

"Am I worth swallowing pride and apologizing?"

"Am I worth taking a chance on?"

Since you didn't "go after" your girlfriend, I'm guessing she assumed the answer to the above was "no" even if you just thought you were doing what she wanted. I suppose you have to ask yourself if she was worth it. Maybe she wasn't. Maybe, like the lyrics I linked to in a comment above, she was just your "hell" and not your "dream." It depends on what you wanted, I guess.

Strange how one person means one thing and does another, while another person does one thing and means another.

There are, of course, women who abuse this push-pull relationship, and who do turn it into a game. If you keep having huge fights, fake break-ups, and then you come crawling back...that could be a bad cycle. No relationship should force either party to feel disrespected or worthless.

On the other hand, when there were discordant moments, was it she who made the first efforts to apologize or smooth things over? If it was, she was probably starting to feel fairly awful about herself, as if you were making her do the work and she was pathetic enough to do it. That may not be how you were interpreting it but...we all have pride.

Sadly.

There has been only one time in my life I've ever really wanted a person to remove themselves from my life (a very creepy college experience which I will not go into).

Since I take the request of telling someone to shove off fairly seriously, I wouldn't just throw it out there in a fit of anger as described in your fight. Most people don't mean the crap they say when they're angry. I'm pretty hot-headed and say a lot of stuff when I explode. When women are calm and level-headed and telling you to go away...that's when they mean it. Which is what the scene was in my creepy college experience: purposeful, with carefully chosen words and after much thought. (It also involved bagels. Don't ask.)

This concept of worth -- I've written about it in various forms a gazillion times on this blog; obviously, it is important to me that I make other people feel worthwhile and that I feel worth, too. Things like spending time with people-- all that stuff I've written -- those are the ways to show a person they have worth to you.

Also, I do hope you read Keith's two posts as well as the books I mentioned in a comment above. Seriously. Read the posts and those books.

Hope this wasn't too long, but was useful. Thanks for visiting my blog.

By Blogger Julie R. Neidlinger, at 6/9/07 21:52  

I thought that was a very thoughtful and kind answer to Jeff. I think the idea of worth, and the woman's need to show her that she has worth, makes sense. The think that women should understand about that, however, is that the signals that women send when they're wanting men to pursue them are exactly the same as the ones they send when they really just want the guy to leave them alone. (By "signals," I simply mean what she says and what she does.) This seems to apply whether it's a relationship break-up or just an initial "not interested" reaction.

So how does a man show worth to a woman? By honoring her spoken wishes, or by dismissing them and pursuing her anyway? When does "no" mean "no," and when does "no" mean "come get me"? This is where men feel that we're expected to read women's minds.

With regard to the lyrics to "Bitch," although I recognize the truth to much of the song, there's also a strong element of, "I am who I am; you're going to have to change to accommodate me" going on. That's a rotten attitude that both men and women are guilty of.

With regard to Jeff's circumstance above, I really don't get the whole "stormy relationship" thing. Every relationship has its own issues to work out, of course, but the whole repeated "fight and make up" syndrome just doesn't seem healthy to me. I think usually it's an incompatible couple who happen to have the hots for each other. And "the hots" are not enough to sustain a long-term relationship. Better to find someone you can genuinely feel comfortable with and enjoy being with.

By Blogger Keith Schooley, at 7/9/07 06:52  

The stormy relationship thing was the cycle I was talking about -- I don't think that's an admirable thing or place anyone should find themselves in.

Regarding the rest...well...again, I think you have said good things but when I read it the first thing I think in my mind is...it sounds like a guy wrote it. I know people can't read minds. I understand the concept of "no means no." Nome and I touched on that up above in the original post.

What I find interesting is that this is the concept male commenters and emailers have expounded on like you have done here, while female readers (and my friend Nome, who helped me write the original post) have come at it like I wrote to Jeff. It is a very clear area of man-woman differences in communication. It makes no sense to men, and it makes sense to women. I can't say you are wrong because I don't think you are. I am merely saying, whether a guy thinks it is fair or isn't, whether he thinks it is good or not, that this is a way some women think.

The song "Bitch" doesn't come off to me as "you accommodate me" but rather seems like a woman saying "Look, I told you I'm not perfect. Sometimes I don't make sense and I do things that will drive you crazy. Can you just take me as I am, anyway? Or do I have to change before I'm OK?" It ties into what I mentioned to Jeff regarding the ways the world tells a woman she has worth, and how they are impossible to attain -- it's a reaction to that.

I think, again, that men and women will identify and interpret that song -- as well as the concept of "no means no" -- differently. One sees it as a game or an impossibility, the other sees it as valid or logical.

I didn't see Jeff's girlfriend as saying "no, I won't go out with you anymore" but as saying "leave me alone, this hurts" during a fight in which she was having a conflict with a person she liked and wanted to leave the moment before she said something she regretted or because she wanted to get away from it to clear her head. That's what I would do, and that's why I said what we say in the heat of the moment usually doesn't care the "no" that the same thing might while calm and level-headed.

This ties in to the cartoon I posted recently. The same things do not mean the same things to men and women.

By Blogger Julie R. Neidlinger, at 7/9/07 09:01  

"The think that women should understand about that, however, is that the signals that women send when they're wanting men to pursue them are exactly the same as the ones they send when they really just want the guy to leave them alone. (By "signals," I simply mean what she says and what she does.) This seems to apply whether it's a relationship break-up or just an initial "not interested" reaction"

I didn't really talk about this paragraph, the one on signals. I don't really get signals. If I'm not interested in a guy, I'm generally not anything more than polite -- not on purpose, but just because it's how I would be with any stranger that I have no desire to be a close friend with. So there would be the "no means no" concept before the question requiring a no was asked. Some guys will take a chance and ask out someone who didn't seem interested at all, and it is honestly the first time the woman has seen the guy in that regard. Or she'll just say no because she doesn't mean it. That's all part of the stuff Nome and wrote above.

The difference for Jeff was that he was already in a relationship and in a fight was told to go away. It's not the same as a signal (the "go away") signal from a stranger he was not in a relationship with, even if it seems to be the same signal.

The signal, though seemingly the same, is different depending up if you are in, or are not in, a relationship.

That's a really clunky way to word it...but the best I can do.

And of course, the great caveat is again: not all women agree. Some have different personalities. Some don't react as such. Jeff's girlfriend did. I probably would. So there you have it. Like I said to Jeff...it depends on what you want. Each different personality has its benefits and downfalls. I have my father's periodic flash of temper and I push people away so I don't do more damage at the moment. Some women are not like this and will read this and think "Huh. Crazy woman."

By Blogger Julie R. Neidlinger, at 7/9/07 09:16  

I agree with you completely that men and women talk different languages sometimes. That was my point. If we think of communication as merely self-expression, we can express ourselves in a way that makes sense to us, and we'll probably find ourselves at times just talking to ourselves.

On the other hand, if we truly want to communicate to others, we need to at least try to find a way to express ourselves in a way that the other person will understand. Each of us has to try to do the work of a translator, both in talking and in listening.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not enough to say, "Look, women are just wired this way, it makes sense to us, and you'll just have to get used to it," any more than it would be enough for a man to say the same things. We have to try to figure out how other people are wired and communicate with them in a way that they will understand.

So if someone who has that fiery temper learns to discipline themselves to say, "I need you to leave me alone right now before I say something hurtful I'm going to regret later," rather than "Get away from me! I never want to see you again!" they might find fewer instances of that other person taking them at their word and never coming back.

By the way, do women understand this with each other? Like a fight between friends--do they understand to come back and try again? (I'm sure the answer is, "Some do and some don't." Sigh.) It would make more sense of the movie, Beaches, which to most men is the most godawful chick flick ever made. I never got how the two main characters could have knock-down drag-outs, and then in the next scene, simply have a tearful reunion without ever addressing the issue they were arguing about in the first place.

By Blogger Keith Schooley, at 7/9/07 11:26  

By the way, do women understand this with each other? Like a fight between friends--do they understand to come back and try again? (I'm sure the answer is, "Some do and some don't."

I guess that some do and some don't. Heh.

Beaches made perfect sense to me. I liked that movie.

Most of those fights in the movie were not really about the "issue" that they later didn't address, but about hurts and slights they felt that threatened their close bond. It was the threat to the bond between them that made them fight about something else.

It's probably connected to what you said when you talked about the difference between male/female friendships. It isn't about an issue or a outside element, but a bond between the two friends that no roaring fight would tear up. Like in the movie...once the fight was over they were closer than ever.

I certainly wish I could be as reasonable as you describe in a moment of anger. I really am not perfect and I know there are things I will never get under control as well as I want to. I can say I'm much better than I used to be, and that it takes a really deep hurt to get me angry enough to react, but I'm just not at a place where I can calmly say "let's take a pause while I calm down."

I think, when the relationship matters (like it did in Beaches, for example), the hurt hurts worse, making the reaction sharper and stronger in the moment, making it have even less sense to the outsider or other person but...the resolution, if it happens, makes the friendship stronger. That's been my experience with female friendships. I know that when if I have a fight with a female friend and tell her to bug off, I don't mean it and she knows I don't and that she'll wait a bit and we'll make up and it'll be good. And that's why I say that it doesn't seem like a game to me. It seems...normal. Something that makes a relationship stronger. (Unless you're talking that vicious cycle, which is another thing altogether.)

By Blogger Julie R. Neidlinger, at 7/9/07 11:41  

Thanks for the response. At least now something good has come of my watching Beaches. "Redeeming the time, for the days are evil," you know. At least now it wasn't a totally wasted two hours.

:-)

By Blogger Keith Schooley, at 7/9/07 11:51  

The first time I saw Beaches I cried so hard -- no exaggeration here -- the front of my T-shirt was visibly wet from tears.

It seems a little cheesy to me now, but at the time and age I was...

You made an excellent point by bringing it in, however, in that it shows fight/makeup push-away/pull-back-harder thing that happens in some female friendships.

By Blogger Julie R. Neidlinger, at 7/9/07 11:55  

Well, I'm more confused than ever -- my master's degree doesn't help me here. There must have been a time when men and women got alone with all the heavy analysis. I think if I showed this to parents, it would look like another language. Or maybe a Seinfeld episode.

By Anonymous deniro, at 7/9/07 12:05