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28 Comments:

I have got no problem with "Jesus Camps," I have been to a few (although we called them Bible camps, or maybe they are different?) and I had some fun. I think where this starts to get a little weird (even for people like me, who grew up in a similar enviornment) is when they start talking about "soldiers in God's army." Being a soldier implies that you are fighting a war, or that there will be a war in the future. Who exactly is the enemy in this war? If it is a metaphorical reference, are 5 and 6 year old kids really capable of making that distinction? I don't remember ever being told I was in an army (aside from a silly song) and I know that dying for God was never talked about. That is my beef with the whole thing.

Also, she displays a misunderstanding of what is going on in the middle east, in my view. She wants kids here to be like kids in Israel and Palestine? The situation over there is about politics. Religion is used, by many, to achieve political goals. But this is a battle against (or for) occupation. Of course the fact that the lands are deemed holy certainly exacerbates the situation. Oops, i am off topic.

I agree the reporting was crap. Here, let us interview this liberal secular feminist (i wonder if she discribes herself this way when she meets new people) after we interview someone who is the complete opposite. C'mon everyone, pick a side! No room for middle ground. It is nonsense.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts and I didn't realize you already posted on the subject.

By  GraemeAnfinson, at 19/9/06 13:51  

The simplest answer to this war you wonder about is this:

Who is the enemy? Satan.

Why the analogy of soldiers? We are told to put on the armor of God in the Bible, and what else does the need for armor imply but that we are at war? God tells us as much.

The difference that I pointed out in my post, that it is not against flesh and blood, is key. It is when Christians forget that, that we see the twisting, corruption and falling of movements and ministries (Ralph Reed comes to mind) that decided to do battle against people instead. When the spiritual battle is forgotten and the human battle is the focus, it is easy to be led astray by seemingly innocent steps that seem to make sense at the moment. If the spiritual battle is the focus, then all that people say and do against us is to be expected and not in need of a reaction; they are not the enemy. They are merely being used by him.

Pastor Becky's view of the Middle East may have been simplistic at best and inaccurate at worst. I can't say for certain because I've not seen the entire movie and I don't know anything more than the sound bite provided in the clip; I can't know what she said before or after what we heard.

A mistake people often make about kids is thinking that they are not capable of higher thought or complex issues, that they can't comprehend what we lofty adults are doing. We write them off as a kind of simpleton. This is seen clearly in the way too many children's books and videos are made, where stupid entertainment turns out stupid kids, a sad self-fulfilling kind of prophecy.

It is an adult prejudice against children. I believe children comprehend -- yes, in a different way, their own way -- more than we give them credit for. They don't have that problem of a cluttered mind that has been divided up and fractioned out yet.

It is no mistake that Jesus said we should approach Him as children. This is not an implication of lesser thought, but of different thought. Madeleine L'Engle's A Wrinkle in Time series demanded much of her young readers in regards to higher math, etc. She understood that children understand.

Look, when I'm hanging around a bunch of kids, I don't talk about the things adults usually talk about with kids, thinking they can't comprehend the "adult" world. It's we adults who do not get it. Talk to a kid like a normal person. Seriously. Let them ask you questions as they try to figure out what you're saying. You'd be surprised at what they'll tell you that you never thought of before. And you'll also find out that they'll treat you differently when they see that you're not just talking down to them like imbeciles.

Why is it easy to "brainwash" kids? Is it because they don't think?

No. It is because they are very capable of thinking. And that is why children's ministry movements are important. We ask them to think about the most important of all matters, spiritual things, instead of just the usual things kids are expected to be concerned about. I think that is part of what bothers people.

Everyone indoctrinates their children. Liberals, conservatives, Christians, Muslims, Jews -- everyone. By merely raising them, they take on the nature of nurture. No child is raised in a vacuum.

I think, more than anything, what I want people to come away fromt his post thinking is simple. I want them to weigh what they know and think about me, Julie Neidlinger, and what they know and think about Pentecostals and charismatics and Christians, and somehow come to a conclusion that accepts two things:

1.I grew up as and am still a Pentecostal. I was raised hearing this message, I still hear it, and am not opposed to kids still hearing and experiencing this.
2. All of the blog posts, the way I think, the writing, the art, the comments, the things you know about me are the real me.

I am both of these things. You must make your own conclusion.

By  Julie, at 19/9/06 14:56  

I'm an atheist, so I guess most of this religion stuff looks pretty bizarre to me. But anyway, I'm getting a review copy of the Jesus Camp movie later this week so I'll post a review of it on the blog...and then next Friday I'll be doing a podcast/internet radio interview with Fischer herself.

Should be fun and will maybe help clear up some of the confusion on this.

By  Rob, at 19/9/06 17:51  

Why does God give Satan the authority to be our enemy? Why would he/she let something gain enough power to do that, enough power to try and subvert their universe building? (which I assume is hard work) I mean isn't Satan the antithesis of God? Isn't there some sense of equality there? Why would an all powerful being allow something to be somewhat of an equal to them?

(when I say he/she for God I don't mean that I think God is a hermaphrodite, I just don't want to sound sexist )

By  GraemeAnfinson, at 20/9/06 01:24  

Instead of pretending I know the answers to all things, let me put it back to you like this:

Why do you think God wouldn't allow Satan to be our enemy? Do you think we ought not have such an enemy? Do you think it was His intention? Why do you think that the opposite of God must be in near equality in strength? Does the night have the same power as the day? Or does the sunlight, despite seeming to be the opposite, possess greater power than the absence of it? Is pure evil as powerful as pure good or does it only seem like that to us who cannot truly understand pure good? Why do we think God must be fair on our terms and not allow evil? Why do we want to be able to make our choices yet ask why God would allow satan to even exist? Do you think satan even approaches the power of God or merely makes it appear that way as God stays His hand until His timing? If we believe God is all-powerful, why do we question why he allows things that do not make sense to our human logic? And if we do not believe He is all-powerful, then there really is no question, is there? And finally, why are the answers to these questions important to you? What are you looking for?

I don't know, Graeme. I don't have to know all things about God because that is impossible. You might think that is a cop-out, but it is the truth that I'm telling you. I can't wrap my mind around the workings of a combustible engine and I certainly can't wrap my mind around God. I despise people who try to answer these questions as if they know everything, as if they were questions that we could even come close to grasping, and I haven't much time for those who don't even try to ask such questions.

A good book I'm reading right now is
Unspeakable: Facing up to the challenge of evil, by Os Guinness. I think you might like Guinness' writing; it's very deep and scholarly and he pulls in references to every imaginable source. It might not answer your questions; it might just give you more.

Is it truly necessary to know all answers in order to believe? I never feel cornered when pressed by such questions and not by sufficient answers because I do not feel the questions are signs of cracks in God's foundations but are instead signs of our minds trying to grasp what is just beyond it, trying to feel out what we know is there. You will never stop having questions. I don't.

By  Julie, at 20/9/06 07:50  

Wasn't satan one of Gods highest ranking angels that fell from Gods grace?

By  robbie, at 20/9/06 08:12  

Bible camps are not the same. At bible camp, you are shipped off for 2 weeks so your parents can get a break. You go swimming, cook out and even make out with girls.

By  Jtoso, at 20/9/06 08:52  

you christians are always getting out of answers cause you don't want to say you havent' figured it out. you dont' want to admit you don't know and haven't figure it out. i don't need a frame of reference or understanding to see that jesus camp is about a bunch of freaks. i can see for myself what it is. you just dont' want to admit it.

matt

By  Anonymous, at 20/9/06 09:29  

Robbie: Yes, he was.

Justin Toso: Maybe at your Bible camp. Not mine. Everything isn't a joke or a chance to make out. Part of that seriousness is probably what bothers you.

Matt: OK. Let's do this.

People have spent the history of the world trying to figure out their spouses, their children, their siblings, their friends...but they think, despite that failing, that they can figure out God? We haven't even begun to really understand what's happening in a five-foot radius around us at any given time yet we're going figure out God.

That's rich.

Anyone who tells you they've figured out God is lying. It is impossible. You can try, but if you use that as an excuse not to believe, you were really only looking for an excuse and not God.

A frame of reference is absolutely necessary. For an outsider to understand what was seen in the Jesus Camp clip is like filming a Boeing 747 being made and showing the video to a newly discovered tribe in Indonesia. How can they possibly begin to understand it? It is like a foreign language to them. They have to find some kind of frame of reference, find a way to make it make sense to them by using what they do know, and they can only get it wrong at the get-go. You are trying to interpret something you absolutely have no language or reference in which to interpret it and can't possibly get it right. You can't. It's like someone rattling Russian off to you, expecting you to reply back.

That is why I think this movie should not have been made. It is too difficult to interpret without some kind of reference. The references people are making (Taliban, fascism, extreme Islam, Nazi, cult, Koresh) are the wrong ones, the only ones at their disposal. The tribe in Indonesia might think the 747 a mechanical bird. It isn't.

I can't fathom why Islamic terrorists do what they do. I can't say I'll ever understand them because I have no frame of reference for that kind of hate. They are an astonishment to me. I can't even begin to talk about them because I don't know a full enough history, and haven't any way of understanding.

You must admit that what bothers you is you don't know what you're seeing, you don't know what to do with it, and you don't know anything else to do but react with the limited cliches you think might apply. You do not understand it and will never understand it from the side of you wish to remain on. So you fear it and push that down with blustering proclamations of judgment.

Fine.

But don't claim you are taking a higher ground, a lofty intellectual position, and that you've got it figured out when the reality is something very different.

By  Julie, at 20/9/06 17:26  

Theres no way a kid raised in this crap can be anything but a psycho when they grow up. these parents are making there kids be goosestepping militants that can't think for themselfs. just look at how those Islamic kids turn out. They strap on bombs and blow everyone up. it's the same thing, same brainwashing.

matt

By  Anonymous, at 20/9/06 18:13  

It isn't actually the same thing Matt, and I believe you to be wrong in your hypothesis that anyone raised in this manner must turn out badly. But instead of these general ideas that you are throwing out, these grand summations you hide behind, let's get specific. Surely you don't mind.

Your first hypothesis cannot be proven. In fact, it can be disproven.

1. I was raised in this pentecostal-type up bringing. I grew up hearing about being on fire for God, being a warrior in the battle against the enemy, being involved in intense altar times and religious training and admonitions.

2. If we were, at the risk of sacrificing modesty and humbleness, to compare my life with yours, how would they stack up? How would this Pentecosal compare with you, how would we compare on the things people think of as necessary for a good, productive, useful, intelligent, independant person? Such things as formal and self-education, travel, life experience, personal reading habits, hobbies, community and volunteer involvement, productivity, creativity, interest in the arts and music, athletics, professional growth, personal challenges, responsibility, family involvement, curiousity, debate -- basically, how would we compare as well-rounded "Renaissance men", the ultimate example of a non-psycho? I think I can hold my ground with just about anyone.

3. Therefore, it isn't a given that being raised in this kind of upbringing denotes a 100 percent rate of craziness and close-mindedness.

For every example of a child raised this way who has gone "wrong" I can give you an example of one who hasn't, starting with me. I can also give you examples of children gone wrong and gone right who were raised as Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, Atheists, Jews, Mormons, Hindus, et. al. What this means is that your hypothesis, your lazy stereotype, is garbage. You are coming at it from the wrong angle.

Your second hypothesis, a comparison of children raised in radical Islam and radical Christianity, is also inaccurate. It would be a waste of my time, I think, to approach it as a spiritual issue, so let's go with an accountant's view of things. Though I have no numbers and no real desire to devote the time to research, I am fairly certain that if you did a numbers or percentage tally of children raised in radical Islam versus children raised as radical Christians, you'd find a larger number of radical Islamic children prone to weaponry, explosives, and death to the infidel. The reason, and no one wants to hear this, is that Islam and Christianity are not the same. All religions are not the same. When Islam calls for a fight against actual humans, Christianity calls for a fight against satan. There is a huge difference there. Though the picture Christians often present is not a pretty one, the sheer numbers of those gone violent "in the name of God" compared to Muslims gone violent "in the name of Allah" actually doesn't compare at all. They are not the same.

And Matt, may I request that you read Lone Prairie Blog Appendix A and Appendix B before leaving your next comment? I don't sense that you intend to bring anything new to the discusion; I welcome it if you are. Thank you.

By  Julie, at 20/9/06 18:26  

well according to your blog appendixes, no one should take you seriously cause you spelled "discusion" wrong and that's not allowed. you're pretty prone to quickly and foolishly criticize others for doing what you do.

matt

By  Anonymous, at 20/9/06 20:47  

Ha ha -- are you serious, Matt? You're pointing out my spelling errors?

Very well, then. Your most recent comment has a compound split infinitive. There. I've parried, but I won't riposte because our conversation is done.

Ha ha.

By  Julie, at 20/9/06 20:54  

Julie:

Thank you for the time and thought you've put into discussing and trying to explain this. You've done a great job. I think anyone who is truly willing to hear you out could gain much. But only those who are truly willing to hear. Thanks again and good job.

Graeme:

Thanks for your honest questions and thought. And thanks for being willing to ask and then listen to Julie's responses, even if you don't agree. I respect that.

Naomi

By  Anonymous, at 21/9/06 00:21  

When she talks about kids laying down their lives, that is just like Islam advocating suicide bombers. Can't you see that?

I mean, I can see some of your points, but that language is so obvious.

-- Jennifer S.

By  Anonymous, at 21/9/06 12:07  

There is a language and culture in each different vein of Christianity that prohibits those who are not part of it from understanding. I don't think it ought to be that way, but that's how it is. A person cannot expect to understand the language, culture, and idioms of a foreign country if they've just been introduced to it. The only thing he can do is to try to pull together everything he knows to be similar, from his own limited experience, and interpret accordingly.

Too many of the comments I've been seeing, from the right and left, the reformed and the Catholic, are bizarre knee-jerk reactions to the foreign language and culture that people can't interpret beyond Ruby Ridge and Waco.

"Lay down your life" does not equal suicide bomber. It is used in the Bible not as a synonym for taking non-believers out of the game, but instead as the idea that I will put aside my plans, my desires, my life, (i.e. "lay it down") and choose to pick up the cross and follow Christ. There are also many passages where it is used in other ways, such as laying down your life for your brother, how Christ laid down his life for us – all of these things. The very glaring point being this: when Christians advocate laying down their lives, it isn't a matter of doing something to others, it is a matter of doing something for others.

I've mentioned that though Pastor Becky Fisher (and yes, my Reformed friends, we do read our Bible) approves of the movie as being accurate, I wish it had not been made. I've not seen it yet; I don't know of all that she advocates in the film nor do I know what my reaction will be. The point is that both she and I may not have a problem with it for the same reason: we both speak the language. What is understandable to us is clearly not to those seeing it for the first time, as evidenced by the reaction to the admonition to be soldiers (not against flesh and blood) and the call to lay down their lives.

By  Julie, at 21/9/06 12:26  

Not all Catholics react that way. While I must admit I don't understand someone writhing about on the floor in worship. I sure don't disrespect them by comparing them to some kind of cult!

By  robbie, at 21/9/06 14:31  

Jimmy Carter's book, "Our Endangered Values," has a terrific summary of fundamentalism and the dangers it poses to mainstream American values, especially with ongoing hijacking of the Republican Party by religious radicals.

My big problem with Jesus Camp, after thinking about it, is the way it politicizes religion.

That's as much a danger to free and open government as it is to free and open worship.

By  Ryan G, at 21/9/06 16:09  

Is it true God knows everything we are ever to do in our life even before we are in our mother's womb?

By  Anonymous, at 21/9/06 17:04  

Ryan, I've not read Jimmy Carter's book, so I can't really talk about his take on it. I also haven't seen the movie and so I can't say whether Jesus Camp actualy does advocate politicizing religion or not. Praying for the leader of the country, as I mentioned in my post, is not the same as politicizing. Again, I'd have to see the movie.

I do agree, however, that binding religion to politics is a terrible idea and something I've grown quite irate about. I couldn't agree more on any subject. It's bad for the faith and bad for the politics.

Anonymous, your question is a hard one. I believe God is all those omni's: omnipotent, omniscient, etc. If He is all of these things then he knows all things. And so the answer would be yes, though I admit to having difficulty even beginning to wrap my mind around it. Your seemingly simple question is the fuel for some of the biggest debates and brawls between Christians in regards to free will, predestination, election, sovereignty and a lot of other stuff that makes me sometimes wish everyone would quit talking and just let God talk.

In the updates to the post, I added a link to an article by Rich Tatum which I think you ought to read regarding the caution necessary when people begin proclaiming to others what God has said or revealed. God knows it all. We don't. And it's a big deal when things get lost in that translation.

By  Julie, at 21/9/06 21:22  

You are right in saying the numbers game means little, how many people go to madrassas vs how many people end up fanatical. We can't know.
kids are easy targets for indoctrinators, every precaution needs to be made that their undivided attention is not being abused. Extra attention should be given to learning the practice of critical thinking, to create a balance, to counter the force of peer and social pressures to conform. How much of your own conformity is conditioning, lone prairie?

By  troutsky, at 22/9/06 00:38  

"...every precaution needs to be made that their undivided attention is not being abused. Extra attention should be given to learning the practice of critical thinking, to create a balance, to counter the force of peer and social pressures to conform."

Like putting them in public school?

"How much of your own conformity is conditioning, lone prairie*?"

You assume:
1) I suffer from conformity.
2) That it is possible for a person to not suffer from conformity.
3) That conformity must be bad.
4) That I am merely reacting in my response, which is what conditioning trains one to do.

Lots of assumptions. In this particular discussion, I am not the one doing the reacting, nor am I the one not thinking critically. So I ask you, what are you conforming to? Who conditioned you?

*Julie. My name is Julie. The website's name is Lone Prairie.

By  Julie, at 22/9/06 00:52  

Julie, thanks a ton for your ver kind words about my article and blog entry. I really appreciate it, and I've gotten a huge kick out of reading your Jeremiads.

For what it's worth, here is the link to my fuller criticism of the documentary:

Jesus Camp: Brainwashed in the Blood - or Is it Spin? @ BlogRodent

This is the 6,000-word (plus) article I originally wrote for my blog before I hacked it to fit a sub-2,000 word limit for Christianity Today. (:: sigh :: I do write long.)

Keep up the good work, it's been entertaining. I love snarky bloggers, and your blog Eula is enviable. I wish I'd written that.

By the way, what you had to say about the way movies and documentaries necessarily use the most sensational and atypical examples to provide visual and dramatic interest? I wish I'd thought to write it the way you did. You credited me for saying it, but I didn't say it clearly enough.

Regards,

Rich
BlogRodent

By  Rich Tatum, at 22/9/06 02:56  

To people who have never seen a Jew, I bet seeing the recent celebration of Rosh Hashana looks weird, what with the funny cloths and the strange language.

To people who have never seen an American style wedding, I bet it looks pretty weird, what with all the funny cloths, all those people around an alter, and the Chicken Dance.

To people who have never seen a rock concert, I bet it looks pretty weird, what with all the funny cloths, the strange loud noises, and the people writhing in ecstasy.

Why are the people who most brow beat us about being open minded, open to other ways of life and the value of learning from different cultures so quick to condemn the culture of evangelical/conservative Christianity? I believe the name for judging a thing while remaining in ignorance about it is "prejudice." I am sure those who are prejudiced against evangelical Christians are very comfortable in their "open mindedness," very sure that evangelicals have everything to learn from them, yet they nothing to learn from evangelicals.

By  Jon, at 23/9/06 20:01  

Julie: I actually think this movie was a bad idea. There is no way most people will understand it, other Christians included, choosing instead to see it as fuel to an already burning fire of opinion. If a camera had been there when the Spirit descended as described in Acts, I can only imagine the uproar and mockery added to the mockery that did take place.

Excellent words, Julie. I probably should say more about this on Lunar Skeletons, as some of my reading regarding the Azusa revival (see Robeck's book) concerned the jagged intersection between that event with how it was reported in the news media. Needless to say, it was definitely misunderstood by the newpaper reporters of that day, even though in church history it turned out to have been a fairly important event.

Anyhow, I have commented briefly on Rich Tatum's blog, expressing my lack of surprise. As I was more or less saying to Rich, docu-agitprop film making, ala Michael Moore, is not meant to enlighten and explain but rather to throw more fuel on a fire, to bring in the air bellows, and to push the conflagration in a desired direction.

By  Oengus Moonbones, at 24/9/06 21:26  

I was interviewed on MSNBC's The Most with Alison Stewart a couple of days ago (Tuesday, 09/26). I finally got the video on my blog if you're interested.

Jesus Camp and BlogRodent on MSNBC

Rich
BlogRodent

By  Rich Tatum, at 29/9/06 04:28  

When I wrote the comment on the movie "Jesus Camp" about when do the children have time to be just children, my feeling is that this may just be a summer camp that they are profiling, but it is a lifestyle that these children live. This doesn't just stop at the end of 6 weeks of camp. Your comment about maybe I should stop wearing "Nike" sneakers (which I don't wear by the way) or clothes made in China (I wear clothes made in India by my own two hands) was undeserved. You don't know me. I wear birkenstocks and I mostly wear Sari's or Salwar's, that I make myself. You've drawn conclusions about me based on one sentence. If you've read my blog you would realize that I am a person that embraces all religions. I am also a person that cares about what happens all over the world, to adults and children alike. I don't however, embrace anything that forces a child to think in adult terms. How in the world is a child "saved" at 5 years old? What has a 5 year old done that they feel the need to be "saved"? At our Pentecostal church, you weren't allowed baptism or altar call unless you were old enough to understand what you were doing. I do not disagree with their religion, I just think that children are children for such a short period of time, that they should be allowed to be just that...children. It disturbs me that they are crying and speaking in tongues when they should be climbing trees, swimming, and playing games. There's lots of time to become a soldier for God. Let the parents wage war against Satan for awhile, leave the kids alone. And by the way...I have NEVER cowered a day in my life, not on paper, not in person and not certainly not in a blog. As for how I feel about children...I have 11 children, 3 biological, 8 adopted (crack and meth addicted). I fight for the rights of children on a daily basis and that includes their right to be children for as long as possible. Life is hard enough without worrying at 5 or 6 years old, about whether or not you're going to hell, or that terrorists are coming to blow you up.

By  Anonymous, at 29/9/06 17:13  

Fine thoughts, Barstow Mom.

I would encourage you to read Rich Tatum's article that I linked to above. Much of what you said regarding 5 year-olds being saved, etc. is discussed there, which is why I told my readers to read his article. I saw no need to rehash it here.

One note: I often write in third person (you) as a bad habit. It doesn't mean you you, but you general. The blogs I chose to link to were meant to highlight the general themes I was seeing. I certainly made no effort to link to every blog talking about it. Consequently, yours was the one I picked to cover the "they're only children" theme. Pardon the confusion.

Just as you don't have time to fully read my blog to paint an accurate picture of me, I do not have time to read yours. Such is the weakness of a blog where I assume my readers have been with me long enough to know where I'm coming from.

Thank you for stopping by and commenting.

By  Julie, at 29/9/06 17:48  

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