Reprinted at the Reformation Journal.

written by Julie R. Neidlinger      13 comments      link this post     


A recent blog post found on the Lone Prairie Studies blog has been "reprinted" and run in its entirety at The Reformation Journal.

I imagine the readership at that blog to be quite different than here, and so any ensuing discussion will be of interest to myself, at least. I tend to get a bit nervous about these things for wholly insecure reasons, but I am pleased if something I wrote is seen as beneficial or useful to someone else.

That's the main reason for writing, isn't it?

UPDATE: The post has been linked to on a few other sites, which I've included below. Some interesting discussions on those sites.

Links:


UPDATE: OK, I gave up keeping track. You can find all the sites that linked to the post here.

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Copyright (c) Julie R. Neidlinger      8/06/2008 09:12:00 AM      (13) comments      Links to this post    




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13 Comments:

I happened to click on this blog by accident and was fortunate enough to have run into the very fine post of yours.

Couldn't have said it better myself, having ventured into more "hip" churches after being burned by the more rightwing fundamentalist end of the spectrum.

Why is doing church so elusive? Many are sincere people, but yet the traps and pitfalls are hidden and everywhere. It's frustrating.

Not sure if you could relate, but to me there is the whole ethnic angle to the church experience which I wrote about here.

(Even though nobody has done it on my blog, I find it cheesy when people show up in comments to whore their own blogs).

By Blogger David Cho, at August 7, 2008 11:52 AM  

Oh, I like cheese, David. No worries. Good links are always appreciated.

By Blogger Julie R. Neidlinger, at August 7, 2008 11:54 AM  

Interesting article. I can't help thinking that your desire for church is simply, or not so simply, the desire to surround yourself with good people, i.e. the kind of people you knew in the past.

By OpenID dinunzio, at August 8, 2008 7:44 PM  

I would like to think that what I wrote is more than just reminiscing and longing.

And I think it is.

That small church isn't really in my "past" since I'm only gone from it temporarily, and visit it once in a while while away.

By Blogger Julie R. Neidlinger, at August 8, 2008 10:25 PM  

Yeah, I didn't meant to diminish your feelings. I was thinking along the lines of David's question, "Why is doing church so elusive?" as part of the larger question of why certain things that were once given and fixed are now missing or a matter of choice or effort.

I've been at various parts of the religious spectrum, as participant and observer. Running parallel to the doctrine preached there is usually a set of cultural habits or attitudes. It's true in other walks of life as well, not just religion. Wearing a suit to work versus wearing Birkenstocks on the weekend. In each case there is a peer pressure to conform, to exchange an individual identity for a group identity. On the one hand this seems like the usual, fairly harmless biological adaption of fitting in to survive. Dressing the part, as it were. On the other the hand, it suggests a process whose trappings can disguise what's really important, the diamond. And when I say "what's really important," I don't have anything especially complex or metaphysical in mind. A courtesy, common sense, or humanity which in the past was taken for granted.


--V.

By OpenID dinunzio, at August 9, 2008 9:01 AM  

I find it fascinating, reading through the blogs that refer to your article, at the way it is interpreted by those reading it. The hipsters reject it as an attack on their outward appearance, missing what you say about content. In a similar manner, the "traditionalists" embrace it, thinking that you really do want to turn back the clock to do what "everybody" did in the '50s, again, without regard to content.

How do you deal with the fact that you wrote something that is understood by so few reading it? (Yes, I know you put lots of helps in your article, but they still read what they wanted.)

By Blogger ship captain, at August 13, 2008 8:08 AM  

Ship Captain: As to "how I deal with it" regarding what I wrote and its interpretation...I wonder if it was wise to write it, since it gives ammunition to two already well-armored sides.

In the end, we all tend to pull from an article what we already believe. At this point, I will just let the post sit and not respond much -- I've said all I can say and don't know that any further explanation will really clarify.

By Blogger Julie R. Neidlinger, at August 13, 2008 8:13 AM  

I've regularly attended (over a year each, one 10 years+)seven churches. Your frustration is easily recognizable. I've walked out of services, too. More than once. Once we had to form donations lines of certain dollar amounts. We waved as we exited and went to Wendy's.

I've been manipulated, treated as stupid, used, and irritated by this fine institution -- the visible church. I don't know anyone who hasn't who is a thinker or at least an observer.

But in fairness, I've also made wonderful friends, laughed, worshiped God, and had illuminating discussions in most.

And it didn't matter my dress at the time -- it never came up. I take a "when in Rome" position. I like my jeans; I like to doll up. Doesn't matter to me.

I've lamented the sad immaturity-fostering "youth group" culture and the emphasis on pop culture topics at the expense of real theology.

I've seen some pretty unbelievable things go on in church, right under the banner. Still I can't accept the "island" mentality of Donne or the "all you need is love" mantra of family churches.

I'm not ready to give up, but I've long felt about church the way I feel about education: a radical overhaul is needed.

Surely God has left guidelines somewhere. Maybe we could start with those.

By Blogger The English Wench, at August 13, 2008 12:27 PM  

The guidelines comment was right on the money. Ecclesiology isn't something covered very well at even the best seminaries; we either do what others have done in the past, or do what others are doing on the cutting edge. Cookie cutter churches, without asking, "Why?' are the result.

The Bible does speak about church organization and about the organism of the church. We don't get to it very often because we stop on issues such as the two camps of today have.

Connecting with God and one another is what the church is about. It should be body-centric, not pastor-centric. Obviously, whether the pastor is in a robe or jeans, it can and usually is still pastor-centric

The problem is that is what we grew up with. It seems normal. Those who recognize a problem think that you can solve the problem by removing some of the formality. That doesn't change the model.

I believe that secretly we all like it when the church relys on staff. We are off the hook. We expect them to arrange everything. If we lived like the church should, we would be required to show much more commitment. We would be necessary.

As a church planter, my biggest frustration is that people don't want to be necessary. They want to flit in and out. Burger King Christianity reigns as we want it our way.

Simply put, if I have a gift and I am supposed to use it for the rest of the body, then I am necessary.

Churches won't change, except for dress and building choice, until we all grasp this.

By Blogger ship captain, at August 13, 2008 1:44 PM  

This post has been removed by the author.

By Blogger Will, at August 14, 2008 8:17 PM  

Hey Julie,

I'm the guy in the picture on the cover of World Magazine that you reference in your original post. I'm sorry I'm late to the conversation; I just found out today that my clothes and faux-coffee had created a mini-uproar in blogdom.

I know that your post was not personal, although I will admit that my feelings were a little hurt at first by the comments about my clothes. But I am the father of a 21 year old son and a 17 year old daughter who often remind me that I'm not cool, so I am used to it.

My point, Julie, is not about how I dress or whether I represent all that is wrong with "NextGen Worship". You and I share many of the same concerns about relevance as the goal of ministry and the desire to fit into culture rather than to shape culture. I am concerned that we may be forgetting the point of church is to point people to Jesus.

My point is that your problem with me, and by extension the type of church my picture represents, might be based on perception rather than on reality. I don't know how many pastors you know personally and I don't know how many churches you have worked in. I have had the opportunity to connect with hundreds of pastors across the country. I have found some who were caught up with image, relevance and coolness and they too made me want to dump coffee on their heads. The vast majority, however, simply wanted to follow the Apostle Paul in becoming all things to all me so that by all means they might win some. They are doing their best as imperfect humans to share the Good News in the best way they know how. Along the way they make mistakes and they take abuse and people walk out in the middle of their sermons, but they keep trying to honor God and minister to people. They are real people who more often than not end up looking lame because they can't find clean socks and have to wear flip flops to church.

My encouragement to you, Julie, is to find a church family that you can commit to for life if possible. Get up close to the pastor, hear his heart, help him relate to the needs of young, single women. Roll up your sleeves and throw yourself into ministry. Be prepared to be disappointed and misunderstood and let down because that is what ministering to people looks like from the inside. But also be prepared for the ride of your life as God uses you to reach out to the Julies and Davids who are looking for the same thing you are looking for.

If you ever end up in South Carolina maybe we could meet at Starbucks and I could buy you a cup of chai (I actually don't drink coffee) Hopefully if you get to know me you won't want to dump it on my head. Or you might, but at least you'd have a good reason.

By OpenID geoffsur, at August 19, 2008 7:28 PM  

Hello Geoff.

I replied to your comment over on the World Mag Blog.

By Blogger Julie R. Neidlinger, at August 19, 2008 9:31 PM  

I caught a link to your blog on a forum I read. Does it almost seem as if Jesus is being dumbed down to you by all this extra "stuff" to make it popular?

Did Jesus not tell us that the world hates Him and by extension us? We are to show Christ, our holy God, and instead we bring what? Something else.

Your idea of true Christianity is right--the world is to know us by our love for one another. We are to encourage and love and help our brothers and sisters in Christ.

There is not real love in the world. Maybe it's that love of Christ that is supposed to draw them. They can't see it if we are too busy showing them other things.

Excellent post, and thank you.

By Blogger Jennifer, at August 22, 2008 4:12 PM  

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